Season 2, Episode 4: “Does My Career Have to Define Me? Or Can I Just Clock Out?”

Piggy  0:01 

We would like to thank our Patreon donors. Thanks to Trisha, Meredith, Nikita, Rachel, and our friendly neighborhood school counselor. An extra special thanks to Corinna and Deborah.

Corinna and Deborah, you are awe-inspiring galactic butterflies of prosperity, and we love you.

Kitty  0:21 

We do. We do love them.

Piggy  0:36 

(intro music)

Okay, so we’re doing an episode, aren’t we?

Kitty  0:57 

I think we’re doing an episode. We could be doing an episode now, with this authentic banter.

Piggy  1:02 

This is authentic banter.

Kitty  1:04 

Or we could go back and give each other like some fresh banter.

Piggy  1:08 

We don’t need fresh banter. I think this is banter.

Kitty  1:11 

I think people will be content with our stale, dusty banter, which is nonetheless authentic. It’s very farmhouse aesthetic banter.

Piggy  1:22 

It is farmhouse aesthetic. It’s like shabby chic banter.

Kitty  1:26

Yes, exactly.

Piggy  1:27 

In fact, it’s listed on our script for the episode as, in parentheses, chatter.

Kitty  1:32 

Oh my God.

Piggy  1:34 

It’s chatter.

Kitty  1:35 

I feel so terrible for the people who are … we are working to create transcripts for our podcast, and basically everything that comes out of my mouth, I want to just like cover the microphone and lean over to them and go, “You don’t have to write that down. That part’s not important.”

Piggy  1:49 

Yeah.

Kitty  1:50 

Except that it’s about literally everything we say.

(voice to speak towards the transcriptionist) “You can cut that out. You can edit that out. Just edit the whole thing out.”

Our show is just the theme song playing for 30 seconds, and then that’s it.

Piggy  2:06 

Yeah. No, it’s the theme song, ask the question, and then it’s us going, “Do you have any more to add? No? Okay, great.” That’s it. That’s the show. That’s the show because I’m Piggy.

Kitty  2:18 

And I’m Kitty.

Piggy  2:19 

And we’re the bitches in Bitches Get Riches.

Kitty  2:21 

We are the ghosts of venture capitalists past.

Piggy  2:25 

And we’re here to prevent the Fyre Festival from ever happening again.

Kitty  2:29 

Our time on this planet is limited.

Piggy  2:31 

So let’s get started.

Kitty  2:32 

Today’s letter comes to us from our Tumblr ask box. An anonymous reader says, “Bitches, halp. I don’t want to do amazing shit for my job. I just want a steady 9-5 with routine, white collar work I can drop and forget the second my feet cross my home threshold. I’m in the EU, so this kind of job still exists over here, lucky me. But damn if I don’t feel bombarded from all sides with “LOVE YOUR JOB; YOUR JOB DEFINES YOU; YOU = YOUR JOB; IF YOU DON’T HUSTLE 24/7 YOU’RE A FAILURE.” How the fuck do I kick that out of my brain? I just wanna earn money, feed my cat, and play games, dammit.”

Piggy  3:16 

(sighs) Ain’t that the dream?

Kitty  3:19 

I could kiss you on the lips for choosing this question. I love this question.

Piggy  3:26 

You’re fucking welcome. I knew it would resonate with you.

Kitty  3:28 

We’re recording this right now in the middle of #20quarantine. And I think I’ve seen a lot of productivity porn around how you should be spending your time in quarantine.

Piggy  3:44 

Oh, you have all this extra time. Now’s the time to, you know, do couch to five K, read that stack of books you’ve been putting off for five years, and learn to bake souffles.

Kitty  3:56 

Yeah, that’s not fucking happening. Like it’s happening in dribs and drabs. There are times when I will do something like — you know what, for the first time, I made an opera cake. By hand, an opera cake. Which is like 45 fucking layers. It took me three days. It was a labor of love. And when I was done, I wanted to eat it while sobbing because I was so glad that I was done making it.

Yeah, like, I think you and I have a very comprehensive and harmonious agreement with this sort of mentality of: “The side hustle is everything, and if you don’t want to work all the time, it means that there’s something wrong, like you’ve chosen the wrong career or you just don’t want it bad enough.”

Piggy  4:51 

Well, in fact, we have an article about it at our at our internet website, which is bitchesgetriches.com. The article is titled “Romanticizing the Side Hustle”, and it’s all about this idea that if you’re not hustling, as our question asker asks, then you’re basically a failure. You’re worthless, when the reality is most people who are hustling on the side are doing it either to monetize a hobby that they would be doing anyway, or because they can’t make ends meet with their full time job.

And if you can’t make ends meet with your full time job, there’s a problem.

Kitty  5:27 

Yeah, that’s a full time job problem, not a you problem.

Piggy  5:31 

That’s a you’re-being-under-compensated problem. Granted, because I know we’re gonna get hate mail for this, granted, there are some people who get themselves into mountains of debt and that’s why they have a side hustle. Which, like, that’s a great reason to have a side hustle. A side hustle is a great way to get yourself out of debt, especially consumer debt or student loans.

But if you don’t have a mountain of debt, and you’re just side hustling because, like, you need to pay the energy bill next month, that’s a full time job problem.

Kitty  6:04 

Yeah, it’s it sounds like in the case of this particular question asker, their goal is a job that they can just sort of work from nine to five on and then be done.

Piggy  6:14 

Yes.

Kitty  6:17 

And not only do I think that that is a fantastic thing to aim for. But I think you and I are probably of the school that really wants to push back against the idea that productivity and career success is the best marker by which to measure the value that you add to society as a person. Honestly, it feels like a bit of a Glengarry, 1980s holdover.

Piggy  6:48 

(in a gruff voice) ABC. Always be closing.

Kitty  6:50  

Yeah, there’s this idea that like — I’ve heard people say that like the way we introduce each other if you’re at a cocktail party, which we’re not at any cocktail parties right now, but I’m ready to start hosting some with sock puppets and the dogs’ stuffed animals —

Piggy  7:06 

So I’ve been serving myself a quaran-tini every night in my shower, as I sob quietly.

Kitty  7:17 

You’re still at the quiet stage, eh? Good for you.

Piggy  7:21 

I’m still showering, bitch. Once every three days.

Kitty  7:24 

Now that’s the real measuring stick.

But when you introduce yourself to people at a party, oftentimes one of the first questions you might be asked, after maybe your name, or how you know the host is: “And what do you do?”

It’s like: “How may I judge you? And what is the value that you add to our society please, por favor?” And I don’t think that people ask that because that’s what they’re going after.

Piggy  7:49 

It’s what we’ve become socially accustomed to doing. It reinforces this idea that, to quote our question asker, your job defines you. You equal your job. If you don’t hustle, you’re a failure.

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this on the blog before, but I’ve had that thought before or somebody has implanted it in my brain. So I started asking people like, “What are you passionate about? What do you do for fun and that you wish you had more time for?”

And the conversations I started that way were so much better. Yeah, they’re like I work in the billing department of the major hospital. Like snore.

Like I talked to a guy who was just like, “Oh yeah, I really got into fire dancing recently.” And I was like, “What, tell me about that.” And like side note, I work with this firm.

It was like, “I don’t care about that, tell me about fire dancing.” So I really do think that question, you’re absolutely right, defines us and pigeonholes us in the worst way. And just reinforces the stereotype that doesn’t have to be true. There are so many more interesting things about you than your job.

Kitty  8:59 

Yeah, one of the reasons that Piggy chose this question is probably because I rather famously have really worn my desire to not overwork on my sleeve in my day job to roaring success. One of the things that I always tell people is that at 5:01pm, you’re dead to me.

I have a wonderful private life, a rich and happy family life. I have hobbies that I love. I have volunteering that I care much more deeply about than the things that I do in my day job. And that’s why at five o’clock every night, I”m logged off, I’m gone. If something unusual happens, if there’s an emergency, of course, I’m always willing to be the all hands on deck person.

Piggy  9:50 

But let’s be honest, that’s pretty rare.

Kitty  9:52 

It’s very rare. Yeah, I do not work in a field where that would be considered normal. I’m so grateful that I don’t work at a children’s hospital. That I don’t review safety standards. I don’t do anything in which lives hang in the balance. I think having a job that has a minimal impact on the lives that people lead is a beautiful thing.

It gives me permission and you permission, every one of us permission, to not get our entire selves wrapped up and tangled up in our job roles. And I think I’m a much more affable person when I get eight hours of sleep and eight hours of leisure. And I’m only working for eight hours a day. That’s when you’re going to get the most out of me.

I have never, ever, ever had even a very high level executive who I know is a workaholic and I know this job is their identity — every single one of those people, like they lean back, and they’re like, “Man, that’s the way to be, man.”

Like they instantly become surfers. I think that the higher you climb in your career, the more people recognize, even if they don’t have that skill themselves, that the ability to disconnect is an extremely valuable trait and people will respect it if you set that expectation.

Piggy  11:27 

I just want to plug Yvon Chouinard’s book Let My People Go Surfing right here. Because he is the owner and founder of Patagonia, and if you have never heard of Patagonia, it’s a really swanky outdoor brand. But dig into their company culture and their labor practices, and they’re a-fucking-mazing.

And his whole philosophy as a business owner is: Let my people go surfing, like on the nice days, all of his employees who want to go fucking surfing, or hiking, whatever. He’s like, “Go, go, go, go.” And I feel like self-imposed martyrdom … and it’s coming from all levels of the company food chain, like no matter what you’re doing, but Kitty’s absolutely right: the higher up you go, the more experience you’ve had to miss the parts of life that you gave up because you were working too hard.

And I want to change that outlook. I think it begins with changing the idea that “feed my cat and play my games, damn it” is an essentially worthless use of your time. Because that cat will be extremely obnoxious if you don’t feed them, and pets are your responsibility. They are gifts from the goddess on high. And they deserve to be fed.

Let’s change this idea that leisure activities and personal development and growth and relaxation is inherently worthless because it ain’t.

Kitty  13:11 

It absolutely is not, and there was a health report that came out, I want to say like maybe at the beginning of 2020, that predicted that the greatest health crisis that would face the planet in the next decade — very funny in the midst of a pandemic as we’re recording — the prediction probably still stands, which is that the greatest threat to global health is stress.

It’s not any one disease. It’s not cancer. It’s not, you know, a virus, but it’s the way that stress affects our lives. There is a genuine type of person, and Piggy, you’re close to being this person, though you’re not as bad as many people that I’ve met.

Piggy  14:00 

I feel attacked. (laughs)

Kitty  14:01 

There are people who are genuinely, extremely productive people, and oftentimes those people have anxiety, and their way of managing their anxiety is to be doing something. And so those people often are super, super productive, and they just seem to always be involved in everything. When I chat with Piggy, and I’m like, “Hey, what are you up to? Because I’ve been replaying a game that came out in 1997 for the last seven hours, how about you?”

She’s like, “Oh, you know, I’ve been feeling a little bit stressed, so I baked some bread and then I brought the breads to my friend who has a newborn. And then I watched the newborn for two hours while she took a nap, and while the newborn was just like hanging out, watching me, so then I was also editing a manuscript that someone sent to me. And also at the same time I went ahead and planted some seeds in their garden. I’m going to come back in half a year, and they’ll be ready to be pruned.”

Like all these things I’m like, “Oh my goodness, this is so…”

Piggy  15:06 

Some people are probably like, “Oh wow, that’s exaggerated anecdote.” That literally happened.

Kitty  15:14 

And I think, would you agree, that a lot of that has to do with the fact that you do have anxiety?

Piggy  15:22 

Oh, absolutely.

Kitty  15:23 

Moving, being productive is part of that.

Piggy  15:25 

Absolutely. I don’t represent everyone who has clinical anxiety, but I will say that if I have a list of things to do, whether it’s work related or chore related or personal development related, I find it really hard to relax while that list is ongoing.

And I end up bargaining with myself. I’m like, “Okay, I can go read a book or play a video game, or just fuck off and watch whatever the hell I’m binging on Netflix right now. I can do it after I get through 20 squats, but it has to be like 20 regular squats, 21 leg squats on one leg, 21…”

I have to bargain with myself. Like, “Oh, I can only do this one thing to relax after I’ve really pushed myself.” If I drop everything and try to relax right now, I won’t be able to do it. I will be just frantic on the inside with like, “Oh my God, there’s so much to do.” That is unhealthy.

Kitty  16:33 

Yeah, you have a coping mechanism for the way that your brain is, and that coping mechanism works, but if you were designing a person from scratch, you would not say this is a great thing to need to do all the time.

Piggy  16:49 

Fuck no! Because while I’m sitting there trying to relax, like if my heart is still racing and if I’m feeling guilty and like I should be self flagellating for my lack of productivity, then you’re not getting the benefits of relaxation on your body. And I know I’ve already plugged one book, but we’re in quarantine and I am reading constantly right now. So there’s another book called Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers. It’s the medical science behind stress, and the basic premise is zebras don’t get ulcers because most of the time they’re hanging out, relaxing, what they want to do, what they need to do.

And the only time they get stressed out is when a fucking lion is chasing them. So they’re totally chill and relaxed, with brief peaks of stress, whereas human beings on the other hand, can get to this point where we’re constantly being chased by lions. We are constantly in the stress mode, and that takes a huge toll on your body and your mind.

Kitty  17:48 

Yeah, and this is kind of similar to the thinking about like, “Why do so many more people nowadays have allergies than we used to?” And it’s basically because we live in such a clean and healthy world that we’ve designed for ourselves very effectively that our immune system has been designed over thousands and thousands of years to have something to do. And I think our endocrine system is the same way. We are designed to be chased by lions. We haven’t been chased by lions for quite a while now. And so these biological systems are still in place to tell us, “Hey. Hey. You’re like sitting, relaxing on the couch watching this movie right now. There might be a lion.”

So I think, you know, there is a certain kind of person who’s very productive, and whether it’s because they’re an anxious person, or because, for whatever reason, it’s just their coping mechanism for the way that they are. And I think that’s beautiful and wonderful. I think there is a second kind of person who tends to hawk this “productivity is a God that you must worship on your knees every day” sort of message.

Piggy  19:05 

The Church of Productivity.

Kitty  19:06 

(whispering) And they’re paying their digital assistants to write the tweets that you’re reading about productivity.

Piggy  19:19 

 (whispering) Are you fucking kidding me?

Kitty  19:19 

(whispering) Yeah, that’s right.

Piggy  19:21 

(whispering) Are you saying that there are people out there who pay to get that shit off their plate?

Kitty  19:32 

(whipering) I am.

Piggy  19:32 

GAAAAAAAARHHH.

Kitty  19:32 

The FBI, slamming down my door right now, they’re taking me away! No, it’s the CIA. It’s gotta be the CIA. Sorry, sorry. Sorry, FBI. Definitely CIA territory.

Piggy  19:44 

I get the bureau and the agency mixed up now.

Kitty  19:50 

I think there is, oftentimes, if you look at who is pushing that message, I think it can be quite cynically attributed to people who are extremely privileged. Extremely accomplished, and in some way, great for them, but then they turn around and apply this utterly simplistic message of like, “I feel like I work all the time, so maybe I should tell everybody that the way to become successful is to just work all the time and that the way to become happy is to work all the time.”

And I think that is utter bullshit. Productivity porn is a genre that I think will kind of define the era that we live in right now. Like people will think back, in the same way that we think back on like the 1980s, Glengarry always be selling, you’re a shark, kind of mentality.

Piggy  20:52 

Like sharks were born swimming.

Kitty  20:54 

Productivity porn is going to define our era. It’s just like, damn, remember when everybody felt really bad for playing tennis?

Piggy  21:04 

But I also feel like this attitude is on the way out, right? Like this question asker, not to reveal too much about the inner workings of Bitches Get Riches, but our demographic trends pretty young. So, a lot of our question askers are people in college, or in their early 20s who are just starting their #financial journey.

And I feel like the very fact that we get questions like this indicates that that younger generation, they’re not lapping up that bullshit anymore. They’ve been told, you know, love your job, and you’ll never work another day in your life. And they’re like, yeah, but fuck it. I don’t want to love what I do. I want to feed my cat and play games.

The things that I love don’t have to be the moneymakers. I just want to compartmentalize those parts of my life, and is that okay? So I’m really encouraged that we even get questions like this because it shows that the Church of Productivity is recruiting fewer converts every day.

Kitty  22:08 

Yes, so I completely agree. I think that if productivity is the measure by which we determine who is a successful and happy person, all we do is push that curve of productivity higher and higher. And there’s just a certain giving point where you can’t work any more hours in the day. You can’t care any more about the things that you care about. And I actually see this a lot as well in a lot of the social activism that you and I are, if not directly involved in, then aware of.

I see a lot of people who are like, “How am I supposed to enjoy my life when I know that there is so much evil in the world? And so much work to be done to try to combat that evil?” And there’s a really good analogy that I’ve heard before, which is like when a big choir is trying to hold a note for a minute, no one can sing continuously for a minute. So instead, the choir makes a plan beforehand that you three are going to rest here, you three are going to rest here, you three are going to rest here. And slowly over time, you will compensate each other stepping in and stepping out.

Piggy  23:28 

That’s a really great metaphor.

Kitty  23:29 

Isn’t it? It’s a beautiful metaphor.

Piggy  23:32 

I think we should demonstrate it right now.

Ready? Let’s go.

Piggy & Kitty  23:35 

(largely uncoordinated, different types of wailing)

Kitty  23:48 

My last one was a meow. It was really good.

Piggy  23:54 

Are you good with that?

Kitty  23:55 

I’m good with that.

Piggy  23:56 

Listeners, if there’s a question you’d like for us to answer, go to bitchesgetriches.com and click Ask the Bitches.

Kitty  24:02 

There’s only one way to guarantee that we’ll answer your question, and that’s to become a Patreon donor.

Piggy  24:07 

If you like what we do and you want us to keep going, please become a Patreon donor and support us with whatever donation amount you’re comfortable with. We don’t need a lot, a small donation is fine.

Kitty  24:15 

We also have a merch store where you can buy t-shirts and printable worksheets and more.

Piggy  24:19 

Finally, there are some free things you can do to say thanks. Please rate and review us on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, whatever you use. It bumps us up on the charts and makes us easier to find.

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Kitty  24:39 

Hey, um, Is there anything else that they should know?

Piggy  24:42 

Yes, actually. My husband the feminist (TM), who is abnormally tall, any time I ask him to get something off of a high shelf for me, he reminds me not to objectify his body.

Kitty  24:59 

That’s good to know.

Piggy  25:00 

Bitches out!